The Loveland Random Town Jump

[Whigey89]

I love your story!

[Beks]

I love your story!

Thank you so much! I'm glad you're enjoying it!

[Beks]

Chapter 44 - Much Mooching



We're moving right along here in Twinbrook. This generation is flying by, somehow. I'm trying to enjoy the eerie beauty of this town while we're in it by sending Colin out for runs at ungodly hours.



Here is yet another picture of the lovely Felicity playing her lime green guitar. I have this constant feeling of dread, knowing that she's bound to die at any moment.



But never mind that! It's Ellinor's birthday!



Off she goes...



Okay, don't freak out. This is the "before" picture. I just wanted to demonstrate how child much Ellinor resembles, like, a middle-aged guy who runs a video rental store in some backwater town and plays in a cover band on the side. Am I crazy? I think it's the soul patch. And the haircut. And the eybrows.



Okay, I can look at her without laughing now. A rather drastic adjustment of the chin slider, and that soul patch is gone. And you'll never guess what trait Ellinor gets. I'll give you a hint: I hate it. Go on, guess.

ELLINOR IS NOW ALSO A MOOCH.

That's two mooches in the same generation. Two! I'm almost pulling out my hair at this point. I don't know why the existence of this trait gets me so fired up. It's just. so. pointless!



Anyway. Our little Evil Virtuoso Mooch starts off with a wish to learn painting. Good, something to keep her out of trouble! Off she goes to practice painting with her mother. (Aww, they sort of look alike!)



As soon as she's done, Ellinor responds very poorly to Great-Aunt Diana's first atttempt at pinching her cheeks.

"I DON'T think so, old lady. Keep your hands off my over-sculpted cheekbones!"

You tell her, Elli.



Moving on! Colin throws a party on the weekend because we haven't yet, and he needs more friends to increase his charisma. Looks like Cathleen is now an adult and has lost her awesome hair. And her eyebrows. But otherwise, she's doing well. She and Blaise Kindle are married and living together now.



Look who it is! It's Georgiana's best friend from school. His name is Francis, but I'll be calling him Franky from now on to avoid confusion with our dear Francisco. If anyone wants to guess who his parents are, feel free! (At least one of them shouldn't be hard to guess.)



And here, finally, is a decent shot of Kristen Loveland, daughter of Mckenna and Rory. I was wrong in thinking that Mckenna would only produce clones of herself. Kristen is a beautiful combination of her parents.



Our new kitten, Chewie, soon grows up into a handsome adult cat. I love how nicely his parents' genes mixed together to give him this awesome fur coloration. I can't remember if I've mentioned his traits yet--he's Non-Destructive and Adventurous.



Felicity wakes early one morning, in time to catch a glimpse of her one and only. (I've been filling the yard with activities for the elders. Turns out these activities draw ghosts as well.)



Georgiana is a good kid. She's pretty much guaranteed as the heir now, since I strongly dislike all three of her younger sister's traits. (Sorry, Ellinor.)



As a Loner, she's well suited to writing, so she gets started on  her first book. It's titled "aaaaaaaas" because my fingers fumbled on the keyboard the same moment the window popped up and...it just sort of happened? I don't know. I promise future book titles will be much less stupid.



Georgiana rides her bike around town, meeting some potential spouses--or trying to. They never seem to be home by the time she arrives.



And in her free time, she likes to play pretend in her castle-themed treehouse.



I hope Georgie isn't going to be traumatized by all the cheek-pinching that happens throughout her childhood. It's like Diana doesn't know how to do anything else.



Well, she's going to have to learn to control herself. Georgiana is aging up to teen!





Okay, WHY does the game always select such horrible hairstyles? Is it written into the game code??



Ahh, MUCH better. Georgiana's turning out to be quite a lovely lady, if you politely ignore her mouth. Georgiana rolls the Over-Emotional trait, and just like that, I love her. She's a sleepy, emotional introvert who likes when other people make food for her. I CAN RELATE.

[Trip]

Georgiana is kind of beautiful, all things considered anyways. We may have broke free of the Loveland/Schmidt looks at last and it only took us...a pretty average amount of time. Mooch and the heavy/light sleeper traits truly ruin my day too.

Is Franky Gala and Wei Keane's son? I mention Wei not just because you said something about him a few posts ago but that might be his hair color.

[deedee_828]

Or maybe Franky is Amy Bull and Marc Brandt's son? That's who sprang to mind for me with his dark good looks.

Though after checking Gala and Wei Keane out in the sims wiki, I can see them as possible parents too.

But Gala Ball has ended up with DeAndre Wolf in most of my games, except for when DeAndre married my own CAS sim!

As for the mooch, heavy/light sleeper traits, they are in that class of traits I like to call non-traits, traits that take up a precious trait slot and give nothing back!
Included in that group are: loves the cold/heat, clumsy, and sailor (unless you're playing in an island town but boats can be a routing nightmare)

What kills me is when athletic sims get the clumsy trait or my mean-spirited sims get the good trait---really odd combos to me.

But I like over-emotional---they just FEEL so much!

But...the game always likes to throw you a curve ball----I had an over-emotional diva, who was a male superstar athlete and martial arts expert as well as being a fairy!
Truly quite the combo of traits!

But happy birthday Georgiana! I think she turned out very pretty. It's amazing what a good hair style and some make-up will do!

And yes, it is coded in the game to give your sims the worst hair and clothes possible at age up!

[Beks]

Georgiana is kind of beautiful, all things considered anyways. We may have broke free of the Loveland/Schmidt looks at last and it only took us...a pretty average amount of time. Mooch and the heavy/light sleeper traits truly ruin my day too.

Is Franky Gala and Wei Keane's son? I mention Wei not just because you said something about him a few posts ago but that might be his hair color.

I really like Georgiana's looks too. I'm eager to see what kinds of children she has in the future. I wonder if Shantell's cheekbones will be as persistent as the Sargeant cheekbones...

Franky is indeed the son of Gala! He's a spittin' image of her. Wei Keane is his step-father, but not his biological father. I honestly can't tell if Franky inherited anything from his biological father, so it might be impossible to guess.

Or maybe Franky is Amy Bull and Marc Brandt's son? That's who sprang to mind for me with his dark good looks.

Though after checking Gala and Wei Keane out in the sims wiki, I can see them as possible parents too.

But Gala Ball has ended up with DeAndre Wolf in most of my games, except for when DeAndre married my own CAS sim!

As for the mooch, heavy/light sleeper traits, they are in that class of traits I like to call non-traits, traits that take up a precious trait slot and give nothing back!
Included in that group are: loves the cold/heat, clumsy, and sailor (unless you're playing in an island town but boats can be a routing nightmare)

What kills me is when athletic sims get the clumsy trait or my mean-spirited sims get the good trait---really odd combos to me.

But I like over-emotional---they just FEEL so much!

But...the game always likes to throw you a curve ball----I had an over-emotional diva, who was a male superstar athlete and martial arts expert as well as being a fairy!
Truly quite the combo of traits!

But happy birthday Georgiana! I think she turned out very pretty. It's amazing what a good hair style and some make-up will do!

And yes, it is coded in the game to give your sims the worst hair and clothes possible at age up!

Nope, Franky's father is not Marc Brandt. Marc and Amy did get together in this file, though, and they've had at least two very blue-haired babies.

I agree with all of your non-traits, except for Clumsy. While it is kind of useless, I think it's adorable when Sims trip and look around in panic afterwards. Felicity is Clumsy, and it always cracked me up when she'd trip and stumble while carrying her children as toddlers. I was never able to catch her in the act and get a screenshot.

Your over-emotional-diva-athlete-martial-arts-expert-fairy sounds hilarious. If only all sims were so delightfully random!

To help with the guessing of Franky's father, here's a picture of his little sister (aged up--she's still a toddler at this point in game). She inherited much more from her dad than Franky did.



Any further guesses?

[Trip]

Oh yeah, Harwood Clay was my second guess. He also ages down from elder to black hair/brown eyebrows but I thought the shade looked off at first (yep I'm really going to those depths!) Perhaps my prayers of a town jump marrying Clay spawn into their families will finally be answered. Or not. Everyone's still too young.

[Beks]

Oh yeah, Harwood Clay was my second guess. He also ages down from elder to black hair/brown eyebrows but I thought the shade looked off at first (yep I'm really going to those depths!) Perhaps my prayers of a town jump marrying Clay spawn into their families will finally be answered. Or not. Everyone's still too young.

You got it! And I love that you go to those depths in figuring this stuff out. I never thought to try aging Harwood down to see what he looks like, partially because he's dead in this file already--I think he died when Franky was still a toddler. At a minimum I would've liked to change his hairstyle so I could see more of his face. Ah well.

[Beks]

Chapter 45 - Keen on the Ball



Grim visits the Loveland home for a second time. This time, he's come for Obi.



Okay, Ellinor's face is kinda scary always. But when she's cackling over the death of an innocent animal, she becomes positively nightmarish.



*sigh* I'll never get over that look of betrayal on Sims' faces when Grim cuddles their pets.



Farewell, Obi. Your cuteness and goodness will live on in your (hopefully) many descendents. Rest in peace, my little man.



Georgiana starts high school and does very well. She also does Newspaper Club after school and paints here and there on the side.



At school, she meets her cousin Kristen, now a teen with a very unfortunate head of hair.



And this is her cousin Maurice. This boy's already showing signs of having his father's good looks.



While we're at it, here are Mckenna and Rory's other two kids. This is Dameon. We have a male Benjamin clone!



And this is his twin sister Sarah, who kind of reminds me of her grandmother, Jamie Jolina.



Surprisingly, Georgiana doesn't get along very well with her father. I think it's just Colin being his Evil self, but doesn't he know that his daughter is sensitive and emotional?



Well, I'm glad to see that Georgie inherited her father's tendency to make hilarious faces. She's crying about Obi here; I, meanwhile, am laughing like an idiot.



Shantell has a very exciting day. In the morning, she goes to the bookstore to buy some recipes. After reading literally two of them, she apparently completes her Lifetime Wish of being a Culinary Librarian. Okay, but she has about ten more recipes in her inventory to learn? And even more she hasn't bought yet?



Well, yay, I guess! Then, that evening, Shantell maxes the painting skill with this colorful painting of a zebra. Go Shantell!

Her success streak doesn't last forever, though. The next morning, she has her usual appointment with the body sculptor (which I've been using to keep her weight somewhere in the middle--otherwise she gains weight rapidly, or loses too much weight running). For the first time, it malfunctions--and makes her look like a freaking triathlete. Hilariously, Shantell is NOT happy about it.



"I'm a Couch Potato, dang it! This is not my true form!"



She goes around scowling the rest of the day until I pop her back in and get her back to normal.



Our elderly sisters are doing well (and are miraculously still alive), in case you were wondering. Felicity bonds with the animals and plays soothing guitar music that fills the house with calm. (I genuinely enjoy the music from the electric guitar. It's a nice change from the usual acoustic pieces I've heard Sims play a gazillion times.)



And against all odds, Diana has become best friends with Ellinor. Ellinor was initially revolted by all the cheek-pinching, but now she withstands it and even hugs her great-aunt afterwards.



The cats are thriving too. Satine has a particular love for this fish hideout thing.



Which allows her to do this adorable interaction where she "lures" a human close to her, then swats at their feet with her paw. I've never seen this before and it's so cute I wanna die.



I think it's about time we introduce, officially, a certain young gentleman. Franky Ball-Keane is a regular fixture in Georgiana's life. She's always popping wishes to hang out with him and swat him with pillows. And when he comes over after school one day, Georgie pops a wish to kiss him for the first time.

In reality, Franky isn't the only eligible boy in town--Georgiana has spent a couple afternoons going from house to house looking for potential spouses, but there aren't very many of them, and she doesn't connect well with any of the others.



Take Marcus Bull-Brandt here. I love the blue hair, but he clashes with Georgiana immediately and she pops a wish to snub him. Also, turns out he's Evil. Noooo thank you!



And when Franky calls Georgiana to ask her to prom...well.



She simply has to go. On her father's motorbike, of course.



It's like a wonderful dream. Georgiana has about the best prom imaginable--Franky asks her to go steady while slow dancing with her and gazing into her eyes; he plants a big first kiss on her lips in the middle of the dance floor; Georgiana gets Prom Queen; they're the cutest couple at the dance; they're developing strong feelings for each other; Franky won't leave Georgie's side; and on and on. And there you have it, folks. Spouse acquired.

At the end of prom night, I follow Franky home with the camera to see where he lives. With a little MC magic, I take a peek inside his little house in the swamp--and get a troubling glimpse at his home life.



Here Franky is, holding his little sister Lacey. His mother, Gala Ball, is continually fighting with Wei Keane, Franky's stepdad. The two of them fight viciously for hours, with Wei going as far as to slap Gala across the face a number of times. Poor Franky carries his sister into his bedroom, puts her down on the floor, and goes to sleep there while his mom and stepdad continue to fight in the living room. It's so heartbreaking and strangely realistic that I almost can't believe it. I think we need to give this boy a new home. Thankfully, he doesn't have too long to wait.

[Trip]

Some of the skill challenges only count completing as many of x as the base game has (so 28 recipes, 20 fish species, 19 plant types, whatever) without realizing that EPs can add a whole lot of them. With enough EPs you can complete Culinary Librarian by the time you get to level 8 or 9 of cooking. Supernatural is the big one for that.

Anyways I didn't think I'd feel bad for Gala because she's barely a character but getting widowed and then pushed around by the most tame, milquetoast guy in Twinbrook (seriously Wei??) is not a life I'd choose. Therapy for Franky ASAP!

[Beks]

Chapter 46 - Ping Pong: Danger Sport

The same day that Shantell completes her Lifetime Wish and maxes painting, Colin gets his final promotion and becomes Emperor of Evil. He celebrates with a middle-of-the-night pool game with his proud father.



Francisco: "In honor of my Evil son's Evil achievements, I light this pool cue on fire."
Colin: "So you forfeit the game, then."
Francisco: "......yes."



Ellinor is enjoying her childhood. When she's not going around cackling at her family members, she's roaring at them in her pink dinosaur costume.



But how does this work, I ask you? Just curious.



"Hmmm...what do I, a dinosaur, wish for on this momentous day?"



"I know! The flesh of my enemies!"

I can't help but hope the game will age her up into some sort of teenage dinosaur costume, since she's already wearing this one.



Ah, nope.



Ellinor is now a Great Kisser. Yikes! The teenage population of Twinbrook had better watch out. This girl can serenade, mooch, kiss, and cause suffering all in the span of a minute.



Now that she's a teen, Ellinor can finally start playing that piano that's been in her inventory for years. I find it amusing that this very Evil Sim can only play nursery rhymes at the moment. (Also, if you look past Shantell merging with the maid in this photo, take a look at Georgiana's face in comparison to Ellinor's. In spite of the sisters' many differences, their facial features are almost exactly the same.)

Post-prom, Georgiana has been popping wish after wish to spend time with her new boyfriend (mostly to travel with him--all right, honey, slow down!), and we haven't even seen him since they became official. The two of them arrange to meet at one of the parks on the outskirts of town.



I guess I've never been to this park before. I had no idea it was absolutely buried in rushes that are taller than the average Sim. Georgiana has to hack her way through a jungle to get to her boyfriend, and she practically rams into him before she sees him at all.



Once they find their way out of the sea of swamp plants, these two get along so well. He's Grumpy, she's Over-Emotional...she sleeps too much, he's an insomniac. It's a perfect match. (And they have compatible star signs, which is why Georgiana is cheering here.)



They have a lovely date full of kissing...



...and homework. Seriously, they kiss for about two seconds and then they settle down to bond over math problems.



Georgiana and Ellinor get along pretty well, too. They don't exactly seek each other out to interact, but when forced, they have a good time together.



And Ellinor is well suited to her family full of musicians. She happily joins in with Diana's incessant drumming. The noise is deafening, but the bonding is sweet.



Felicity and Diana enjoy a thrilling game of table tennis out by the water's edge. (I discovered that you can in fact play regular table tennis, not just juice pong. Turns out I'm just an idiot.)



It's in the middle of a round that Diana feels the call of the eternal.



"Grim, please! I was just about to destroy my older sister for the fourth round in a row! Please let me win before I go!"

Alas, it's still her time.



Diana Loveland was the quintessence of what a single Sim can accomplish in life. She maxed three skills (athletic, martial arts, and drums) and reached high levels of many others. She completed the equivalent of three Lifetime Wishes (International Super Spy, Renaissance Sim, and Super Popular). She helped raise three nieces and nephews and two grand-nieces, earned thousands of dollars in tips, and provided constant background noise and companionship to everyone in the family. On top of all that, she lived to be 109 days old. Rest in peace, Diana. You will be dearly missed.



In light of this sad event, let's check in with Shantell, who was just down at City Hall accepting an award and is now Critiquing a sculpture out in the courtyard.



You know, I think Shantell just likes plants. All other artworks she encounters, she does this.



In other Shantell-related news, she reaches yet another milestone in her life's work and maxes out the Painter career. Yeah, girl!



After his aunt's death, Colin becomes practically insufferable. He particularly likes taking out his grief on his eldest daughter. You know, the Over-Emotional Loner? Heartless, Colin--heartless!



At least she stands up to him every time.



Being a teenager is hard work, and Georgiana seems ready for it to be over. Next chapter, it will be.

[hazelnut]

How have I missed this until now?  So much madness!  (And I loved Blaise making another appearance.)  Bookmarked

[Beks]

How have I missed this until now?  So much madness!  (And I loved Blaise making another appearance.)  Bookmarked

Yay! I'm glad to have you here, hazelnut! Thanks so much for reading.

[Beks]

Chapter 47 - Old Men & Bookish Youths



Diana's drum kit goes into Felicity's inventory after her death. Of course, Felicity must honor her memory by playing those drums even more incessantly than Diana did.



Colin and Georgiana are slowly working to improve their relationship. I like forcing them to hang out together, because then I can laugh at their mutually hilarious faces. They're both so dramatic!



Remember how I said Shantell seems to dislike every artwork she critiques, unless it's a plant?



That includes her own paintings, apparently.



Colin's elder birthday hits him, and a wave of nostalgia and sadness hits me. How is my precious Evil boy already an old man?!





Felicity is thrilled that she's lived long enough to see this. Shantell Ellinor is not. (It's at the point where I'm getting Shantell and her daughter confused at times.)



As we only have a few days left in this town, I frequently send Shantell (or someone) over to Mckenna and Rory's to check on them. Mckenna's twins are in school now, and the older kids are both teenagers.



Our two teens spend the last few days in Twinbrook doing their homework and skilling, but also kind of doing whatever they want. Georgiana practices her painting and regularly tears up over the beauty of her garish stick figures.



Ellinor pops a wish to learn mixology. Sure, why not? The drinks she concocts are bad enough to trigger the Fiendishly Delighted moodlet for herself. Or maybe that's just Georgiana being sad somewhere nearby.



"So, granddaughter. Are you ready to take on the burden of being the heir?"
"I guess so. I'm glad you'll be here to see me grow up."
"So am I, dear. I'll try not to die at your birthday party like my mother did."
"Thanks, Grandma."

Francisco doesn't exactly show up for his granddaughter's big day, but he does play another round of pool with his son that night.



"Good luck with that shot, old man. Haha, my son is an old man now too!"
"Yes, but I'm not the one still sticking his pool cue in the tiki torch."
"Gosh darnit--!"



All right, it's birthday party time! First to arrive are our Loveland cousins. Poor Sarah aged up into a Coward and has never met her very scary cousins before.



Georgiana tracks down Franky as soon as he arrives, and pulls him away from talking to cousin Kristen. (Fun fact! Franky and Kristen are actually romantic interests. I don't know this at the time, of course. And I'm never going to tell Georgiana.)



I can feel Sinbad Rotter's negative vibes from here. The man does not appreciate teen romance.



Before everybody scatters to the far corners of the property, let's get Georgiana aged up!



Such a proud, excited family. Wait, where are the rest of our extended family members...?



Ah, they're inside, listening to Dameon's ghost story.

Mckenna: "GASP!"
Cathleen: "GASP!"



*sigh* The hair is back.



The beautiful Georgiana gets the best trait I could have hoped for: Bookworm. Her other traits, as a reminder, are Loner, Heavy Sleeper, Mooch, and Over-Emotional. She chooses the Lifetime Wish that appeared in her wish panel the moment she aged up to child (and was, therefore, her first wish ever): Illustrious Author.



Surprise! It's somebody else's birthday too!





Looking good, Ball-Keane.



The first thing Franky does as a young adult? Break our sink. I think you'll make a fine addition to the family, sir.

[Beks]

Chapter 48 - Willowglen (& Whither, Then?)

Georgiana corners Franky in the bathroom before he can escape.



"So, Franky. Now that you're a grown man, would you like to move in?"

The door swings open in the middle of the conversation. I turn the camera around and there's Colin in the doorway. For some reason this makes me laugh really hard.



"Two of you do NOT need to be in the same tiny room together! What could you possibly be doing in there?? This old man needs to pee!"



Of course, Franky agrees to move in, and consequently gets a quick makeover. He needs very little--just darker eyebrows to match the rest of his hair. No other hairstyle seems to suit him, so I leave the sideways swoosh. Franky's traits are Good, Grumpy, Loves the Outdoors, Born Salesman, and Light Sleeper. He likes Egyptian music, Firecracker Tofu Shrimp, and, delightfully, the color pink. His Lifetime Wish is to be Leader of the Free World.



Georgiana sees her handsome man standing in a puddle of sink water and decides that this is a perfect spot to propose.

Franky says yes, of course.



"But we're standing in an inch of water!"
"I know!"
"It's like we're at sea, on a fancy cruise!"
"I know!"



This day is full of birthdays. Turns out it's also Shantell's elder birthday. I'm personally devastated to see that awesome formal outfit go. I worked so hard on that!



Shantell ages up into a cat sweater, and I decide to let her keep it. Old cat lady it is.



Speaking of old ladies, Diana appears as a ghost for the first time that night. And what does she do? She meditates. I never saw her do this once when she was alive. The afterlife must be really stressing her out or something.



The next day, our new young adults graduate from high school. Georgiana graduates with Highest Honors, is Valedictorian, and is voted Most Likely to Write a Best-Selling Novel. Which is fitting, because she already wrote one. (Yes, "aaaaaaaas" was indeed a best-seller. Who knew?) Franky graduates with Merit and, uh, doesn't get an award. Why does this keep happening to my Sims?!

Since it's Sunday and the end of the weekend and I'm really impatient to get to the next town, the wedding is scheduled for that very evening at Willowglen Amphitheatre.



It starts with the usual chaos. Colin scares Shantell and various other family members repeatedly; bookish Georgiana copes by, well, pulling out a book. (Now if that ain't a mood.)

Franky finally gets to tell his mother that he's getting married.



"You mean you're getting married?! Here?! Today?!"
"Yes Mom, didn't you see the wedding invitation I texted you two hours ago?"
"Yes, but when I saw you yesterday, you were still a teenager! I thought this was some sort of theatre thing!"
"Mom, I've never done theatre in my life."



As more guests arrive, the mood quickly turns romantic. Cathleen and Blaise set things off with an autonomous kiss right under the wedding arch. Okay, you guys are adorable, but you're also already married, so kindly step aside, please.



Georgiana and Franky meet under the arch and Felicity strikes up a tune on her lime green guitar. Naturally, this brings Georgiana to snorting, honking tears.



The vows begin at last. All Sims look a bit dopey when they're getting married, but Georgiana is definitely one of the dopiest.



Franky just manages to look dashing as heck.



Congratulations, Georgie and Franky Loveland!

It's getting really dark really quickly, so we must hurry to cut the wedding cake.



Franky: "BOOOOO! Wedding cake is a sham! You have to wait forever to even get one piece and--"



Franky: "You mean I get to eat it FIRST? Well, never mind then!"



Everybody eats cake contentedly for a few minutes before tragedy strikes.



Of course Blaise begs for more time. She met and married Cathleen in her twilight years, and they only had a brief (but wonderful) time together. But despite Cathleen's ragged sobs and Blaise's pleas, Grim stands firm. Rest in peace, Blaise Kindle-Loveland. Until next time!



As sad as this is, we cannot dwell on things of the past. After the wedding, Franky and Georgiana head to a private room on the top floor of the Red Rendezvous, where they spend their wedding night in peace with the sleeping town glinting beyond the window.

The next morning, Georgiana wakes to a new day and a new life ahead of her.



"Come on, Franky. We must get home so we can move to the next town!"
"And what town is that?"
"I do not know. The future remains hidden."
"In that case, I'm going to finish my chapter first."



The family is all set for the move. (The cats too, but I forgot to pose them for the picture.) (I also forgot to have Georgiana check the mailbox to see where they're going. Let's pretend she did it off-screen.) Also, I must make a special shoutout to Felicity, who is about to see her FOURTH TOWN.



Until next time, Twinbrook.

(Side note: See that tower-like thing on the mountain in the distance? Is that...is that a lighthouse???)